Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Luky, šípy, kuše atp. -moderovaná diskuse.

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Kaša
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od Kaša » 11 Led 2018, 11:36

:D Díky za odpověď.

Nevím jestli už si to někam psal, ale... jaké používáš šípy?
Asi si děláš svoje, co?
Děláš něco speciálního třeba z bambusu, kované hroty s řapem, atd. ... nebo střílíš s něčím "běžnějším".

Kaša

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lasky
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od lasky » 11 Led 2018, 13:23

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvDVDqi5jkM ruska rucna retazova pilka.. pozna to niekto?
Luk je dielo božie, rovnako ako aj žena.

Honza F.
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od Honza F. » 11 Led 2018, 14:21

Coram Rege. Mich., 8 E. II.

Staffordshire. 
Margaret, formerly wife of Robert de Esnyngton, appeared against John son of Roger de Swynnerton, and Nicholas his brother, Hugh, Parson of the Church of Byshebury, John de Levyngton, Robert Personesune of Byshebury of Esyngton, John Charles, Richard de Chelle, Ithel Poker, Thomas de Stretton of Esnyngton, Robert Knyght of Stretton, Agnes wife of Ralph de Byshebury, Thomas son of Richard Pecok, Petronilla sister of Thomas, and Alice daughter of Margery le Dene of Esnyngton and four others named, for the death of Robert her husband, and the Sheriff returned that none of them could be found and held nothing within his bailiwick. He was therefore ordered to put them into the exigend, and if they appeared, to arrest them and produce them Coram Rege at a month from Easter. m. 7.

Staff. In the appeal of Margaret formerly wife of Robert de Esnyngton, against John son of Roger de Swynnerton, and the seventeen others previously named, for the death of Robert her husband, the Sheriff returned that he had put them into the exigend according to the term of the writ, in full co. of Stafford, on the Thursday before the Feast of St. Clement the Pope, 8 E. II., and so on from County Court to County Court up to the fourth County Court, at which Court all the defendants appeared except Thomas de Dunnesby, and surrendered themselves prisoners. Thomas is therefore to be outlawed, and the said John son of Roger de Swynnerton and the others now appeared, brought up by the Sheriff, and Margaret the appellatrix also appeared and stated that Robert de Esnyngton formerly her husband, was in pace dei et in pace domini Regis in the vill of Esnyngton in co. Stafford on the Wednesday after the Feast of the Apostles St. Peter and Paul, 7 E. II., at the third hour on a piece of land contiguous to a garden called Berard Orchard, when the said John son of Roger de Swynnerton came up as a felon feloniously holding in his left hand a bow of Spanish yew, two ells in length, and of the thickness of four men's thumbs, and with a barbed arrow called a clotharewe which he held in his right hand, and with the said bow and arrow he shot Robert her husband through the heart, and of which wound he died within her arms, (fn. 1) etc., and the said Margaret had raised immediately the hue and cry and followed the said John from vill to vill up to four vills, and if the said John should deny the said felony, she was prepared to prove the said felony and homicide against him as a woman ("ut femina") and as the Court should think fit, etc.

And the same Margaret appealed Nicholas the brother of the said John of the death of Robert her husband, and stated that at the day, and place, and hour above named, the said Nicholas was present holding in his left hand a bow of Irish yew, and in his right hand a barbed arrow called a Doggearewe, and with the said bow and arrow he shot Robert her husband under the left breast, and of which he died immediately within her arms, and if the said Robert was not killed by the wound inflicted by the said John son of Roger de Swynnerton, he died of the wound inflicted by the said Nicholas, and the said Margaret immediately raised the hue and cry, etc. (as before).

The same Margaret appealed John de Levyngton of the death of Robert her husband and stated that at the hour and place named, the said John came up as a felon feloniously, holding in his right hand a sword of Cologne, six feet (sic) in length, and of four inches in width at the hilt, and struck the said Robert her husband, half-way between the left foot and thigh, and cut off the foot of the said Robert, and she said that if he did not die of the wounds made by the said John de Swynnerton and Nicholas, then he died of the wound inflicted by the said John de Levyngton, and the said Margaret raised the hue and cry, etc. (as before).

And the same Margaret appealed Roger Personesone of Byshebury, of the death of Robert her husband, and stated that on the day and place named, he came feloniously, and with a bow called Turkeys of Spanish yew, one and a half ell in length, and with a barbed arrow called a Wolfare we made of ash and three-quarters of an ell in length, shot the said Robert her husband, wounding him under the right breast, and of which wound he died within her arms, and so that if he was not killed by the wounds made by the said John son of Roger, Nicholas, or John de Levyngton, he was killed by the wound inflicted by the said Roger Personesone, etc.

The same Margaret appealed John Charles of the death of Robert her husband, and stated that at the time and place named, he came feloniously with a bow made of elm, and with a barbed arrow called a Scotische arewe, which was made of a wood called in Romanis Boul, an ell in length, and feathered with the red feathers of a peacock, and shot the said Robert her husband in the back, and if he was not killed by the wounds inflicted by the others above named, then he died of the wound inflicted by the said John Charles, etc.

The same Margaret appealed Richard de Chelle of the death of her husband, and stated that at the hour and place named, he came feloniously with a bow made of Irish yew, and with a barbed arrow called a Scotische arewe, shot the said Robert her husband in the stomach below the navel, so that he died immediately within her arms, and if he did not die of the wounds inflicted, etc. (as before).

The same Margaret appealed Ithel Poker of the death of Robert her husband, and stated he had shot him with a bow and arrow under the right breast, etc.

She also appealed Thomas de Stretton of Esnyngton, of the death of her husband, and stated he had struck him on the head feloniously with a staff called a Kentisshstaf made of ash, two ells in length, and which he held in both hands, etc.

The same Margaret appealed Hugh the Parson of the Church of Byshebury, as an accessory to the death of Robert her husband, and she stated that he had feloniously held him with both his hands by the right shoulder whilst Thomas de Dunesby, who had been outlawed for the death of her husband, struck him with an Irish dagger (de uno cultello de Hiberniâ) in the breast to the heart, and if the said Robert her husband was not killed by the wounds inflicted by the said John son of Roger de Swynnerton and the others above named, he died of the wound made by the said Thomas de Dunesby with the help of the said Hugh, etc.

The same Margaret appealed Robert Stywardman as an accessory to the death of her husband, and stated that he had held him by the left shoulder whilst Thomas de Dunesby struck him with a dagger, etc.

The same Margaret appealed John Fox as an accessory to the death of her husband, and stated he held his right arm whilst Thomas de Dunesby struck him with a dagger, etc.

The same Margaret appealed Robert Knyght of Stretton as an accessory to the death of her husband, and stated he held him by the left arm whilst the said Thomas de Dunesby struck him with a dagger, etc.

The same Margaret appealed Thomas Bynde as an accessory to the death of her husband, and stated he held him by the throat with both hands whilst the said Thomas de Dunesby struck him with a dagger, etc.

The same Margaret appealed Thomas son of Richard Pecok as an accessory to the death of her husband, and stated he had struck him with a staff of elm, etc.

The same Margaret appealed Agnes wife of Ralph de Byshebury as an accessory to the death of her husband, and stated she had sent the said Thomas de Dunesby to kill him, and had afterwards received the said Thomas knowingly in her house at Bysshebury, etc.

The same Margaret appealed Petronilla sister of Thomas son of Richard Pecok as an accessory to the death of her husband, and stated she had sent the said Thomas de Dunesby to kill him, etc.

The same Margaret appealed, Alice daughter of Margery Le Dene of Esnyngton as an accessory to the death of her husband, and stated she was present and had sent the said Thomas de Dunnesby to kill him, etc.

And the said John son of Roger de Swynnerton and Nicholas his brother John de Levyngton and all the others except Thomas de Dunesby who had been outlawed, appeared and denied the felony, etc., and the said John son of Roger de Swynnerton, Nicholas his brother, John de Levyngton, John Charles, Richard de Chelle, and Hugh, Parson of the Church of Bysshebury, stated they were Clerks, and could not answer without their Ordinary, and upon this appeared Brother William Chalk, a monk of the Church of Westminster and claimed them as Clerks in the name of the Prior and Convent, by a letter signed with his seal and dated 10 April, 1315. (Here follows the letter claiming them as Clerks in the name of the liberty of the Church, and appointing the said William Chalk and John de Butterle, the attorneys of the Prior to receive them.) And as the Court was not satisfied that the said letters were sufficient, the said monk was ordered to appear again at the Quindene of Trinity, and as regarded the other defendants, each of them being arraigned singly, put themselves on the country; a jury is therefore to be summoned for the same date, and in the meantime all the defendants, Clerks as well as laics, were committed to the custody of the Marshall. A postscript adds that the process was continued from term to term at the suit of the said Margaret until three weeks from Easter in 9 E. II., on which day John, son of Roger de Swynnerton, Nicholas his brother, Hugh, Parson of the Church of Bysshebury, John de Levyngton, John Charles and Richard de Chelle who had pleaded they were Clerks, and likewise Roger Personessune of Bysshebury of Esnyngton, Robert Stywardsman, John Fox, Thomas de Stretton of Esnyngton, Robert Knyght of Stretton, Agnes wife of Ralph de Bisshebury, Thomas son of Richard Pecok, and Petronilla sister of Thomas were brought before the King by the Marshall William de Graham, and the said Ithel Poker, Thomas Bynde and Alice daughter of Margery le Dene of Esnyngton, did not appear as shewn on the said Roll of Easter, 9 E. II., and the said Margaret, being solemnly called on the first, second, third, and fourth day did not appear and she was the appellatrix. Therefore the said John son of Roger de Swynnerton and all the other defendants, so far as the suit of the said Margaret was concerned, were quit for ever, and the said Margaret is to be apprehended, and the said John son of Roger de Swynnerton and the other defendants both Clerks and laics being arraigned at the suit of the King, the said John son of Roger de Swynnerton, Nicholas his brother, Hugh Parson of Bisshebury, Johnde Levynton, John Charles and Richard de Chelle, stated they were Clerks, and John de Bittele a monk of the Abbey of Westminster and Archdeacon, appeared and claimed them as Clerks, and the said Roger Personessune and the other laics, being arraigned at the suit of the King, stated as before that they were not guilty of the death of the said Robert, and put themselves on the country. And upon this the King by word of mouth (oretenus) commanded that Henry Spigurnel, associated with a Knight of co. Stafford, should try the case in the vill of Stafford, and the Marshall was ordered to produce all the defendants both Clerks and laics before the said H. Spigurnel at Stafford on the morrow of Holy Trinity. And afterwards at Stafford on the Monday, the morrow of Holy Trinity, the said John son of Roger de Swynnerton, Nicholas his brother, Hugh Parson of the Church of Bisshebury, John de Levynton, John Charles, and Richard de Chelle, Clerks, Roger Personessune, Robert Stywardsman, John Fox, Thomas de Stretton of Esnyngton, Robert Knyght of Strettou, Agnes wife of Ralph de Bysshebury, Thomas son of Richard Pecok, and Petronilla sister of the said Thomas being brought up by the Marshall, appeared before Henry Spigurnel, with whom was associated John Hastang Knight; and the Prior of Ronton, acting for the Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, produced the Bishop's Letters Patent and claimed the said Clerks, and a jury of the vicinage appeared and stated on their oath that the said John and all the others named were not guilty of the deed, nor accessory in any way to the death of the said Robert de Esnyngton, and Richard Hastang, Henry de Cresswall, Roger de Swynnerton, Robert le Mareschal, John de Houton, and William de Chauldon, were sureties to produce the prisoners coram Rege to hear judgement. Afterwards at the said Quindene of Holy Trinity, the said John son of Roger de Swynnerton and all the others, Clerks as well as laics, appeared, and as it appeared by the above verdict that the said John son of Roger de Swynnertone and the other Clerks and the said Roger Personessune and the other laics were not guilty nor accessory to the death of the said Robert, they are quit of the suit of the King for the felony in question. m. 105a, 106 and 107.


From: 'Plea Rolls for Staffordshire: 8 Edward II', in Staffordshire Historical Collections, Vol. 10, Part 1, ed. G Wrottesley (London, 1889), pp. 15-19

Je to zápis případu úkladné vraždy, která se měla stát podle všeho někdy kolem roku 1315, alespoň tohle je jediný dohledatelný datum v textu.
Vdova Margareta tam barvitě popisuje vraždu manžela, kterou spáchalo několik lidí. Je to docela nepřehledné, protože je tam plno jmen.
Já jsem to celé nepřekládal, protože by mi bylo zajisté některými opět vytýkáno nepřesné přeložení.

Pro nás jsou ale nejzajímavější popisy vražedných zbraní, konkrétně luků a šípů. To jsou ty červené pasáže.

John de Swynerton měl luk ze Španělského tisu 2 ell délky (ell je loket, v Anglii zpravidla 1,143m - zdroj: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ell) a tloušťky (síly) 4 mužských palců a barbed šíp (se zpětnými háčky) nazývaný clotharewe...

Nikolas, Johnův bratr měl luk z Irského tisu a barbed šíp nazývaný doggearewe...

Roger Petersonesone měl luk zvaný "Turecký" ze Španělského tisu, 1,5 ell dlouhý a barbed šíp z jasanu dlouhý 3/4 ell nazývaný wolfare ...

John Charles měl jilmový luk a barbed arrow nazývaný Scotische arewe (asi Skotský šíp) vyrobený ze dřeva Romanis Boul dlouhý 1 ell s červenými letkami z páva...

Richard de Chelle měl luk z Irského tisu se šípem Scotische arewe...

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Tengri Bows
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od Tengri Bows » 11 Led 2018, 17:49

Kaša napsal:
11 Led 2018, 13:29
Broken-Arrow napsal:
11 Led 2018, 12:12
Kaša: jelikož casto a nerad lamu sipy, tak jedu tedkom na testovani pro sebe karbony. Rozjizdim ted vyrobu brousenych hrotu na trn (řap), z nejake faj kalitelne oceli. Budu se je snazit osazovat do bambusu, kterej je odolnejsi na lamani nez drevo. Ale nevyhoda je za ma kazdy kus jinou dutinu, a to nekdy o dost velkym prumeru a rap v tom kloktá hned u kraje :( Takze nevim jesi to nezkonci u dreva, ale to se zas rado lame. Babo rad,
Já se v tom nevyznám, ale nedá se udělat bambusový šíp plný a i bez "kolínka" po délce?
Prostě nekoupíš malou bambus. tyčku ale co nejtlustší bambus aby ti do tloušťky stěny vyšel průměr tyčky ... a že bys sehnal i bambus s dostatečnou délkou mezi "kolínky".
Jo jde, videl jsem i lepené, ale odhadoval bych ze budou dost tezke, pac tyhkle dute bambusy sou stejne tezke jako smrkove tycky. Ale v eshopu to sem to nevidel nikde zatim.

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lasky
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od lasky » 11 Led 2018, 19:33

mam doma bambusove tycky , vsak som to sem fotil nie? jeden moj zakaznik s tym z kassaiovho laminatoveho 120 libroveho reflexu robi s velkou radostou dierky do plechu a vsetkeho co sa da..
Luk je dielo božie, rovnako ako aj žena.

Honza F.
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od Honza F. » 15 Led 2018, 18:41

1 Libra = 20 šilinků = 240 penny
Zde jsou pro porovnání ceny ve středověké Anglii. Věnujte prosím pozornost položkám ARMOR, třeba té za zbroj pro vévodu z Gloucesteru (r. 1397)
Jak je vidět z uvedených cen, zbroje v té době nebyly vůbec laciná věc.
http://web.archive.org/web/201106282312 ... html#ARMOR
Naposledy upravil(a) Honza F. dne 16 Led 2018, 07:38, celkem upraveno 1 x.

Honza F.
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od Honza F. » 19 Led 2018, 12:41

Robert Hardy, Longbow... str. 133
1529
So were "leverye" arrows: Walter Henry, the king's fletcher received from John Boyle, hardwareman of Sheffield, 192.000 at 8s a 1.000; and king's fletcher, had L23 5s Od for 310 sheaves of new livery arrows, at 18d a sheaf... 'also for new nocking, new feathering, new heading, and new trimming of 500 sheaves of old arrows which came from the wars when the Duke of Soffolk was Captain General in trance, at 9d a sheaf. John Wilshire and Thomas Hixon, wardens of the Fletchers' Company of London had L4 5s 8d for sorting out "fectyf" or decayed, moth- or worm-eaten arrows.

Z těchto údajů lze vidět, že opravy šípů byly zřejmě běžné, ať už šlo o navrácené střelivo z války a nebo vytřídění a vyřazení dlouho uskladněných šípů. Zajímavá je informace o "new trimming" novém zkracování/ořezání. Je škoda, že z textu není zřejmé, zda šlo o opravu a nebo zda se jednalo o modernizaci (úprava starého střeliva novodobým požadavkům - jiné letky, jiné končíky, jiné hroty, jiná délka).

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Kaša
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od Kaša » 22 Led 2018, 13:29

Dobré info. :thumbup:
Díky Honzi.

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Donny
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od Donny » 29 Led 2018, 07:39

No mě hlavně kluci překvapilo na to jak lučišník byl klíčovou a nedílnou součástí anglické armády, tak že byl placen téměř nejmíň, což určitě korespondovalo s chováním ostatních k nim. Něco o tom psal i Cornwel ve svých románech co se týče povýšení, u lučišníku to nebývalo běžné.

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lasky
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od lasky » 29 Led 2018, 13:29

Donny napsal:
29 Led 2018, 07:39
jak lučišník byl klíčovou a nedílnou součástí anglické armády, tak že byl placen téměř nejmíň,
odkial mas tuto informaciu, pretoze mne bolo povedane o zvysenych prideloch stravy, hlavne masa, o specialnych poziadavkach na lukostrelcov , o tom ze trenovali od mladosti aby mali silu, o lepsom ubytovani pre nich, preco by potom elitneho vycviceneho vojaka platili minimom? Cornwellove romany su romany, nie fakty.
Luk je dielo božie, rovnako ako aj žena.

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Kaša
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od Kaša » 29 Led 2018, 14:08

Donny ,nemůžeš předpokládat že obyčejný "vidlák" vybaven klackem s provázkem bude brát jako do železa zakutý šlechtic.
Na poměry měli lučištníci velmi vysoký žold.

Kdysi jsem si nějaký plat lučištníka přepočítával na piva, a on si mohl dovolit nějakých 30 až 40 piv na den ... což si nemůže dovolit většina z nás. :badgrin:

PeterL
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od PeterL » 29 Led 2018, 21:18

20-30 piv na den, čapované či fľaškove? ak čapák to je okolo 1€ 20-30€ denne, 20 pracovných dní to by bolo 400 až 600 €, hoci vojakom asi preplácali soboty nedele, potom by to bolo 600-900€ to je celkom slušný plat, ja ani v hrubom nemám toľko, :occasion5:

earendil
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od earendil » 30 Led 2018, 00:37

Když si to vezmete, lučištník vystřílí šípy a poté může ještě bojovat nablízko. Může vzít kopí a zabít nepřítele, kdežto "obyč pěšák" totéž s lukem jen tak neudělá. Řekl bych že jeden z hlavních důvodů oblíbenosti této jednotky.

Honza F.
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od Honza F. » 31 Led 2018, 07:43

Nejsem si tím úplně jistý, ale předpokládám, že vojáci asi dostávali navíc ještě jídlo. Alespoň na MR tomu tak bylo určitě.
Takže ten jejich výdělek byl pravděpodobně ještě o něco lepší, např. v porovnání s tesařem, který měl plat zhruba stejný, ale jídlo mu určitě nikdo nedával.

Co se týká jiného bojového využití, tak bych byl opatrný. Lučištnické jednotky zpravidla nebývaly vybavené pro přímý střet a proto pokud do nich někdy najela jízda, končívalo to katastrofou, protože ti chlapi neměli žádnou extra zbroj (velmi pěkný příklad je útok jízdy na pochodující jednotky anglických lučištníků během Skotsko-Anglických válek.Tam dopadli lučištníci opravdu velmi špatně.). To samé asi platilo i v případě, že se k nim probojovali obrněnci.
Netvrdím, že se tak vyžít nedali. Dali, ale asi opravdu jenom v nouzi. Spíš bych jejich hlavní výhodu spatřoval třeba v kopání příkopů nebo při obléhání měst a hradů. Zde mohli zastat mnohem více práce, protože mezi nimi bylo zajisté plno řemesníků (kopání tunelů, stavba útočných věží atd.).

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lasky
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Re: Lukařský chat - nežvanit v galerii, ale tady!

Příspěvek od lasky » 02 Ún 2018, 20:59

Mikke Reinikainen z fb ,10" long little toy that has over 2kg of force at 8cm draw!
Přílohy
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Luk je dielo božie, rovnako ako aj žena.

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